Table On-Topic Summary - 20-Sep-2002
A compilation of this board's financial/economic posts From 42279 to 42350

Post  42279  by  lkorrow       OT: Ark, want to give us a hint?

Post  42280  by  pmcw       Reply
IAC, I'm totally confident that a monkey with a dart board (or an 8 ball) could run COMS better than Benhamou and look better on TV at the same time. The man that could turn diamonds to coal has a classic face for radio. Case study! You got that right.

I won't belabor the details, but IMO, you were all too kind. I agree they are a trader at best, but must point out the implied cash flow was impressive and that's what might give it a lift once it sinks.

It's funny you bring up options. They make CSCO look like Saints. They have over 30% built in dilution is GRANTED options that were, as of close, within 50% of being in the money. CSCO has half the dilution and the option are 150% out of the money (weighted average exercise price). To cap it off, Benhamou has made millions while he has run COMS into the ground. We know all too well, when he took over the company it was larger than CSCO and he has cashed out more options in the last five years than Chambers. Maybe we should just call him Benhamou the bag boy.

Long term, it's worth more in a box by the curb if Benhamou stays - short term there is potentially some trading profits to be had.

Regards, pmcw

Post  42281  by  lkorrow       Reply
Educause has published studies on Wireless and IT Outsourcing use in higher education:

Summary of key findings for the WIRELESS NETWORKING study:

Summary of key findings for the IT OUTSOURCING study:

Press release:,02

Post  42282  by  Briguy       Reply

I've never like Mr. Eisner! Never have. Never will. But that doesn't mean I won't go have some fun in Orlando once in a while.

Post  42283  by  Warstud       Reply
New 52-Week Lows:
Among the standout names on the 52-Week Low list today are EDS, CSC, KCIN, ALA, AMR, NTIQ, GP, BBOX, CRA, DO, PHG... Dissecting the list by sectors, semiconductor-related names continue to dominate: LRCX, TER, AMD, EGLS, PWAV, ISIL, VTSS, AMCC, BRKS, MCRL, TXCC.

Post  42284  by  clo       Reply
U.S. Officials Warn of a West Nile Risk From Transfusions


Federal health officials said yesterday that they were nearly certain the West Nile virus had been transmitted through blood transfusions, and that they were accelerating efforts to develop tests to detect the virus in blood.

To reduce the risk of transmission of the virus, blood banks are being advised to ask donors to call back if they develop a mild fever or flulike symptoms from West Nile fever in the days after they give blood. Blood centers would then consider withholding the blood of such donors so it would not be transfused, the officials said in a news conference.

The officials said that the chance of contracting the virus from transfusion was very low and that there was no chance at all of contracting it from donating. Nevertheless, they said they feared that concern could threaten efforts to reduce the country's chronic blood shortage.It is likely to be months before an effective blood screening test for West Nile is developed, the officials said. They suggested that patients in need of elective transfusions consider postponing a transfusion or surgery in which transfusions might be needed.

Although the precise risk of transmitting West Nile virus cannot be calculated at present, it is very low, the officials said."The data look quite conclusive now that blood transfusion can, on occasion, be the source of West Nile," said Dr. William Schaffner, who is chairman of the department of preventive medicine at Vanderbilt University and who also works in the Tennessee health department.

The new evidence that the virus can apparently be transmitted through blood transfusions comes from the case of a 24-year-old woman in Mississippi who developed West Nile encephalitis. She received blood from 18 donors. Scientists grew the virus from a sample routinely kept by blood banks from one of the donors, who sought medical care four days after donation because of fever, chills and a headache.
That finding led to the new recommendation to blood banks.

The new findings place a burden on clinicians "to use blood only when the patient really needs it, and we should be critical about how much we use" as has been common medical practice in recent years, Dr. Schaffner said.Patients facing elective surgery might consider donating their own blood in advance.

Precisely how long the West Nile virus can stay in a person's blood, and be a source of infection to a transfusion recipient, is not known. It is probably for only a few days after a mosquito bite, because the virus is difficult to detect in the blood once symptoms develop, said Dr. Jesse Goodman of the Food and Drug Administration.

The short time that the West Nile virus stays in the blood makes it far less likely to pose the kind of public health threat than did the viruses that cause AIDS and hepatitis B and C before tests were developed to screen them from the blood supply, Dr. Goodman has said.

The nation is experiencing its worst epidemic of West Nile fever since the virus was detected for the first time in this hemisphere in 1999 in New York City. As of yesterday, there had been 1,745 cases, including 84 deaths, from 36 states and the District of Columbia this year.

The most deaths have occurred in Illinois, which said yesterday that a 23rd person had died from the virus. The death count by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention does not include the latest death.

Also this week, a dog in Illinois died after being infected with the virus. But health officials said that the dog was not healthy to begin with and that household pets were considered at very low risk for the disease. Dogs are not known to transmit the virus to people.

Transmission of the virus has usually peaked from late August to mid-September. This year, the epidemic has probably peaked in the South, but scientists are not sure about the North, said Dr. Lyle Petersen, a West Nile expert with the disease control agency.

The number of cases will continue to rise because of the time lag between diagnosis and sending information through the health system. "Any epidemic of this size is surprising; but it's not totally unexpected," Dr. Petersen said.Because both the Mississippi woman and her blood donor live in areas where mosquito bites are transmitting West Nile virus, officials said they lacked scientific proof that transmission occurred through blood transfusion.Still, "it is prudent to assume bloodborne transmission from transfusions can and probably has occurred," Dr. Goodman, the food and drug official, said.Dr. Julie L. Gerberding, the director of the disease control agency, said in an interview that the new evidence was "pretty close to a smoking gun."In addition to causing encephalitis and meningitis, West Nile infection can mimic the type of paralysis caused by polio, the officials said.In the current epidemic of West Nile virus, doctors have mistaken West Nile's poliolike symptoms with those of a stroke or another neurological condition known as Guillain-Barre Syndrome, the officials said.
The officials reported six such cases, and said they were working to determine the frequency of the poliolike syndrome. The paralysis from West Nile is painless and usually does not involve loss of sensation. Its tendency to affect only one side of the body and the preservation of sensation distinguish West Nile paralysis from Guillain-Barre, which usually affects both sides of the body and usually involves changes in sensation.

Doctors were urged to perform tests to distinguish Guillain-Barre Syndrome or strokes from West Nile because treatments for those two conditions have risks and would be useless for those with West Nile fever.

No specific treatment exists for West Nile fever beyond supportive care like good nursing and mechanical respirators when needed.Dr. Jim Sejvar of the disease control agency said that the poliolike syndrome had continued with little improvement for one and a half to two months in patients in the current epidemic, but that doctors did not know how long it lasts.

The West Nile virus is closely related to one that causes St. Louis encephalitis. The pattern of the current West Nile epidemic resembles an epidemic of St. Louis encephalitis with nearly 2,000 cases in 1975, Dr. Petersen said."Even some of the same neighborhoods affected in 1975 are being affected with West Nile virus," Dr. Petersen said.

The overwhelming majority of West Nile cases have occurred among people bitten by infected mosquitoes. But recent reports of cases among recipients of organ transplants and blood transfusions raised concern about transmitting the virus through these probable new routes.

The disease control agency has previously reported that all four recipients of organs from one donor in Georgia developed West Nile encephalitis or illness.

The agency is now investigating possible transmission of the West Nile virus in at least one other organ transplant recipient.Additional evidence that West Nile virus can be transmitted through transplants came yesterday from scientists at the New York state health department who tested organs and tissues from a patient who died of the infection. Dr. Dale L. Morse and Dr. Guthrie S. Birkhead of the health department said that their team had detected West Nile virus throughout the patient's body, including virtually every organ that can be transplanted. The patient's organs were not transplanted.

Post  42285  by  clo       Reply
FTSE rides wild roller-coaster in morning madness

LONDON, Sept 20 (Reuters) - London's FTSE 100 blue-chip
share index swung wildly in morning trade on Friday, surging
over 250 points before losing all its gains in a breathtaking
roller-coaster ride linked to derivatives trading.
Dealers blamed the volatility on the expiration of LIFFE
September futures and options contracts at 0930 GMT, as
investors rushed to cover big short positions.
One analyst said it could reflect the growing influence of
hedge funds on the market, The FTSE 100 had settled down and
stood at 3,882.2 points, up 1.8 percent, by 1023 GMT.
"I haven't seen it this extreme before," one trader said.
Investors had braced for a volatile morning, because prices
usually see-saw near the expiry of derivatives contracts, but no
one was prepared for the wild ride in store.
The FTSE index rocketed as high as 4,064 points -- up more
than six percent -- and then raced back down to a low of 3,755
-- down 1.5 percent -- in a hectic 20 minutes that left some
institutional investors bemused and retail investors stunned.
"I've never seen anything like that in my life, doubt I will
again," according to one comment posted on an Internet bulletin
board at Hemscott, a Web site for private investors.
The biggest mover appeared to be investment vehicle 3i
, which rocketed 92 percent to 871p before falling back
to 460p.
Other wild swings included a 34 percent price spike by
aerospace company Rolls-Royce and a 66 percent surge by
software firm Sage Group .
Dealers said investors had built up big positions in futures
and options markets and were using the underlying shares to
close out their contracts or roll them forward.
A spokesman for the London Stock Exchange confirmed the
trades were valid.
((UK Stock Market team, +44 20 75424367, fax 44 20 7542
*** end of story ***

Post  42286  by  clo       Reply
Alcatel sees H2 sales 10 pct below H1; Q3 down 15 pct from Q2

PARIS, Sep 20, 2002 (AFX-Asia via COMTEX) -- Alcatel said that because of
further deterioration in the telecoms market, sales will be down 10 pct in the
second half compared with the first, and will fall 15 pct in the third quarter
versus the second.

It said the third quarter sales decline should have a limited impact on
operating income because of anticipated cost savings.

The company said in a statement it has reinforced its rationalisation plan aimed
at restoring profit in 2003, and will cut 23,000 jobs by the end of next year.

Alcatel said its headcount should stand at 60,000 by the end of 2003.

It said it will book 500 mln eur of additional restructuring provisions over the
next three quarters and these will be funded from asset disposals.

"Even though present breakeven trends come close to anticipated fourth quarter
levels, Alcatel's target is to reach a quarterly sales breakeven point
approaching 3 bln eur by the end of 2002... This is more than 25 pct below the
current level of business and way below our present estimate of next year
business," the company said.

It said it maintains its year-end debt target for 2002 as being lower than in

The company said more details will be given at the announcement of its third
quarter results on Oct 30.

dl/wf NNN NNN

Copyright 2002. AFX News Ltd. All rights reserved.


INDUSTRY KEYWORD: Computers, Electronics, Avionics

*** end of story ***

Post  42287  by  uponroof       Reply
Uncovered auction...debt rollover stopped
Those ### bonds, recently downgraded to par with 'Lower Slobovia' are not exactly electrifying the bond crowd.....nobody showed up!

Now what happens if Japanese debt cannot be sold? How long can the BOJ bail the many compromised compartments on their leaky ship?

Shock in Japan, trouble rolling over debt?

Tokyo, Sept. 20 (Bloomberg) -- Japanese bonds headed for their biggest losing week in 3 1/2 years as a sale of 10-year government benchmark securities failed for the first time to attract sufficient bidders for the debt on offer.

``It was horrible, I don't believe there's ever been an auction in Japan that has gone uncovered,'' said John Richards, a strategist at Barclays Capital Japan Ltd. ``If this continues it raises problems in rolling over existing debt.''

The sale of 1.8 trillion yen ($14.7 billion) of bonds drew bids worth 0.88 times the amount of debt on offer, the first time the Ministry of Finance has failed to draw enough bids since it began competitive price auctions for 10-year bonds in 1989, a ministry official said.

The No. 241 bond, which carries a 1.3 percent coupon and matures in 2012, fell 1.073 to 99.999 as of 1:32 p.m. Its yield rose 12 basis point to 1.30 percent. A basis point is 0.01 percentage points.

Bonds extended declines from earlier this week when the Bank of Japan announced it would buy stocks from banks. That caused concern among investors who had been expecting the central bank to announce an increase in its monthly purchases of government securities from 1 trillion yen at the end of a two-day meeting.

``This looks like panic selling,'' said Yuzo Nakajima, a fund manager who oversees 30 billion yen at Deutsche Asset Management (Japan). ``Investors had been expecting the BOJ to increase its bond purchases earlier this week and it said it would buy stocks instead. It looks like they're going to have to increase their bond purchases now to steady the rise in yields.''

Post  42288  by  uponroof       Reply
Systemic Risk in the Financial Sector

9/19/2002 3:13:15 PM

As I said on Tuesday, the system is under stress. This was before J.P. Morgan Chase (JPM: sentiment, chart, options) dropped a bomb on Wall Street, stating that they would take a $1.4-billion charge related to a deteriorating loan portfolio. They have $12 billion worth of loans to cable and telecom companies. Have you seen the charts of stocks in that sector? Noticed the earnings warnings? Seen the lay-off announcements? A lack of demand in telecom and cable along with massive debt is a recipe for disaster for both the telecommunications companies and JPM. This is all without mentioning JPM's massive derivative exposure to the tune of $20 trillion! That's a big number..."

Post  42289  by  uponroof       Reply
ABX hedge clearing...

It must be snowing in He11. I thought I'd never live to see the day ABX sought to eliminate their hedges. There was a time in the 90's when Barrick was called a 'gold mine in drag' due to their hedge fund personality in which their mining operation was always second fiddle. They were one of the key mines responsible for keeping POG low through not only forward selling but selling cheap. G Bush was on the board and still has ties. It was, IMHO, the classic corrupted-in bed with banks and pols-too big to stop-anti gold, gold miner. Now they are reversing and moving quickly to gain full exposure to the POG.

"...It is a classic case of investors telling a company what to do. For a long time Barrick ‘s CEO Randal Oliphant has argued that Barrick would continue to be the biggest hedger in the world despite the evidence all around him that the other major producers has decided to bite the biscuit and increase exposure to the gold price. What he could not argue with was the yawning gap that opened up between Barrick’s rating and that of its arch rival Newmont Mining which now stands at 48 per cent. There was no clearer way to signal the market’s unhappiness about Barrick’s stance on the issue. Maybe one or two of Australia’s larger producers will also get the message, but they probably cannot afford to take the financial hit.

Barrick is forecast to produce 5.7 million ounces of gold this year and next so cumulative production from the end of June 2002 through the end of 2003 would be approximately 8.5 million ounces. The company apparently plans to shrink its hedge book by 9 million ounces over this period, which is more than it will actually produce and compares with its previous policy of delivering 50 per cent of production into hedges. This is a U-turn on a grand scale and way above the more modest reductions announced by AngloGold and Placer Dome. RBS Dominion Securities expect that Barrick has already covered the 3 million ounces of written calls leaving 6 million ounces of forward sales to retire by year end 2003. That, as the brokers point out, would compare to 7.1 million ounces of production between end September and 31December 2003.

The battle between Barrick and Newmont is therefore on in earnest. Not only is Barrick shrinking its hedge book to around two years of production by the end of next year, it is also expanding production by 2 million ounces/year organically from the Veladouro, Pascua, Cowal and Alto Chicama projects. If that is not a bet on the future price of gold – JP Morgan note well – what is? By 2004 Barrick’s production of 7.7 million ounces would be neck and neck with Newmont’s forecast of 7.5 million ounces, so there is every reason for the disparity in the ratings to have narrowed considerably by then..."

Post  42290  by  pdowd       Reply
Read what Scott McNeally had to say about expensing options at the end of this article !! PD.

More Sun acquisitions in the works
By Mike Tarsala,
Last Update: 8:47 PM ET Sept. 19, 2002

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) - Sun Microsystems is in a buying mood, said CEO Scott McNealy on Thursday, following the acquisition of storage-technology company Prius Networks.

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A day after the company said it plans to acquire Acton, Mass.-based Prius in a stock-for-stock deal to boost its storage-networking offerings, McNealy said it's a "great time" for Sun to buy other companies in an effort to expand its offerings. See full story.

"The valuations are much better than they were a couple of years ago," McNealy said in a wide-ranging interview. "And we have about $5.5 billion to $6 billion in the bank. We're in an incredibly strong financial position, and can turn some of that asset into some long-term earnings capability by making some wise and focused technology acquisitions."  Listen to part one of the interview.

Buying technology companies, in addition to the nearly $2 billion Sun (SUNW: news, chart, profile) spends on research and development annually, could become part of the company's plan to turn around its business after several disappointing quarters and a falling stock price. See full story.

In the interview, McNealy also aired concerns about efforts to legislate corporate accountability at publicly traded U.S. companies, saying, "We don't need to go any further." He said executives are now spending more time fighting trial lawyers than improving the integrity of financial results.  Listen to part two of the interview.

"A lot of what's going on can hurt the shareholder, rather than help the shareholder," he said. "We can try to regulate integrity into every human in the business world, and it ain't gonna happen."

He also warned against the dangers of forcing companies to count the cost of stock options into their other business costs. McNealy said that expensing options could hurt shareholders, while serving to further mystify financial reporting.

"If we had to expense options, I think there would have been a 20-cent hit on earnings last year - a non-cash hit," McNealy said. "Does that help the shareholder understand what we're making or not, given that the last five years of options are all under water and haven't hurt the shareholders one bit?

"And yet our employees have worked extra hard for less cash than they normally would have... The accounting standard would have you expense something that was an asset for the shareholder."

Sun's shares tumbled 10 percent, or 30 cents, to $2.70 in the regular session, but tacked on 20 cents in the after-hours session.
Mike Tarsala is a San Francisco-based reporter for

Post  42291  by  pdowd       Reply
Ikorrow --Thanks alot for that post on West Nile ! PD. EOM.

Post  42292  by  uponroof       Reply
It's a free country...
to a fault???

They are students that attend our kids schools, workers that work with us, neighbors that live in our neighborhoods. Right in front of our eyes they challenge our ability to meet out justice. They use our freedom to flaunt their disdain. Imagine what would happen to an American citizen in Iraq pulling this stunt.

Post  42293  by  pacemakernj       OT: Linda, there has been serious discussion about

Post  42294  by  pmcw       Reply
lk, Excellent links - thank you! Anyone interested in wanting to brush up on trends in IT and wirefree networking should read both. It's not so much as to what you can get from what's printed - there's an amazing amount of information between the lines.

One example is the current and forecasted types of wirefree connections. The top of the chart is already being filled in and the bottom of the chart is the huge potential (more units available to connect) that is coming.

Another point to consider is from the IT study:

"For the period 2001–2006, IT outsourcing in higher education is forecast to grow at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 17 percent, whereas the commercial market is expected to grow at a CAGR of 19 percent and the federal market by a CAGR of 16 percent."

Clearly, those serving the outsourcing markets will have some good times in their future. Personally, I feel IBM is very well positioned to leverage this growth into profits.

Regards, pmcw

Post  42295  by  pmcw       Reply
pd, What do you think? Kind sounds like "forked tongue wagging" to me. Read the following and tell me if the statements are sequitur.

"A day after the company said it plans to acquire Acton, Mass.-based Prius in a stock-for-stock deal to boost its storage-networking offerings, McNealy said it's a "great time" for Sun to buy other companies in an effort to expand its offerings.

"The valuations are much better than they were a couple of years ago," McNealy said in a wide-ranging interview. "And we have about $5.5 billion to $6 billion in the bank. We're in an incredibly strong financial position, and can turn some of that asset into some long-term earnings capability by making some wise and focused technology acquisitions."

One would hope McNealy would consider SUNW to be grossly under-valued while trading below $3, a five plus year low and only $1.5B above net tangible asset value. If this is the case, why would a CEO trade his under-valued stock for that of another company unless it was "more under-valued" and, if the latter was the case, wouldn't that discount the intelligence of the management of the "other company"?

Oh well, at least they aren't spending $600M cash for something they plan to give away like StarOffice and it's been quite a while since I've seen Scott waste energy on a Softie rant.

Regards, pmcw

Post  42296  by  tinljhtkh       Reply

This reminds me of the fears that circulated around during the height of the AIDS epidemic when fear of infection due to blood transfusions and mosquito bites ran rampant in the population at large! There were supposed cases where people with no traditional exposure to AIDS acquired the disease and were clueless as to how they came down with it!

If we're all lucky, the change in the weather will put an end to this horror for this season! The problem with West Nile is that it will probably return next season since its sort of been around for a while. The question is whether it will be worse than this year! As you can see from your article, my home state of Illinois has had more than its share of deaths and people are very sensitive to that fact!

Don't forget that the three old hags are flying today! From the looks of the first few minutes of trading, they may be moving kind of low and slow as the shorts have gained some confidence from the earnings warnings that are also flying around all over the place. Duke Energy's shortfall doesn't look good at all because it reflects back on its suppliers just as it does on those who buy its product! Somebody said that spot sales were thin and that is never a good sign for the economy as a whole!

Like Gilda used to say--it's always something! The maker rest her soul!




PS--The operative theme for the day may be "There's a bad moon a risin"! Or maybe that should be "Blue Moon!"

Post  42297  by  IamCanadian       OT: Tin, yes I did see they are asking her some qu

Post  42298  by  SkippyWalker       Reply
if I may be so bold (Amex: ONT)
One of the beaten to death stocks in my meagre portfolio is showing some life. It is a penny stock but from recent lows of .10 its now hovering .20-.25
The company has an older codec offered for open source programming (vp3) and newer proprietary codecs for compressing digital video files.
For short term traders (not me) the possibilities are self-evident.
For investors buyer beware: the company had to get some last second financing to keep it alive. They did succeed in attracting investors. The management is making noises about posting first profits soon. They are foreswearing salaries until the post profit. Management is also buying at these levels. There are big time fish in their sea: Microsoft Windows Media and Apple QuickTime to name two you may have heard of - but they are pricey for new developers.
But it could be an interesting turnaround even if it only gets to $1.

Post  42299  by  jeffbas       Reply
lkorrow, I must have been unclear. I was particularly interested in where the dollar volumes of buying or selling (money flow) came from. Did you just calculate by hand?

Post  42300  by  Decomposed       OT: Table ON TOPIC SUMMARY Sep 19, 2002

Post  42301  by  tinljhtkh       Reply

You may be so bold! Many, including me, are looking for different ideas, or at least a way to gain some additional liquidity! As things continue to deteriorate, and the pricey technology gets further and further out of reach of some, its nice to know that there might be places where a new developer could go to get by until the good times roll once again--whenever that might be!

You gave a nice presentation that included the pitfalls and I, for one, appreciated it!




Post  42302  by  toneo123       Reply
obviously you did not look at the gold price chart, and didn't study the effects of the war throughout history. deficit spending is actually a boost to the economy, resulting in tightening monetary policies to stem inflation, which in turn strengthens the dollar.

Post  42303  by  pdowd       OT: I am tired of FEAR !!!!!

Post  42304  by  lkorrow       Reply
Schaeffersresearch has some excellent free daily email newsletters. . . .

Post  42305  by  tinljhtkh       OT: IamCanadian!
Post  42306  by  danking_70       OT: The Moral Authority of the UN

Post  42307  by  lkorrow       Reply
Thanks Pace, 2001! It's a moot point, just rhetoric. Who needs to worry about that now. To tell you the truth, I didn't notice any tax cut other than the $600/$300 check, I wonder who got the cut through 2011. Corporations, I'd bet. I'm for the capital loss/dividend changes now. NY Times has a good story on this today.

Post  42308  by  danking_70       OT: (Democratic) Bystanders

Post  42309  by  lkorrow       Reply
Jeff, your inquiry was clear. The moneyflow is the last chart on the page. Since you can't see it, I assume the configuration is stored on my PC. You can get it by clicking on the "Interactive charting" button on top and selecting "money flow" as "lower indicator 3." I also select volume+ and RSI, they give you three choices. Then click store chart settings or display chart.

When you get the moneyflow chart, it shows the hour below the chart, so it is simple to see what time money is flowing in or out of the stock and how much. I calculated by visual means.

Post  42310  by  clo       OT: danking,(Democratic) Bystanders, I totally con
Post  42311  by  maniati       OT: pdowd: May I offer my most heart-felt congratu

Post  42312  by  lkorrow       Reply
Clo, I think they should pick the most junior member. The old buzzards are going nowhere.

"I would like to see Daschle replaced, but I can't think of who would best fit this role..." -- Clo

Post  42313  by  lkorrow       OT: Ark!
Post  42314  by  pdowd       OT: Thanks maniati ! EOM.
Post  42315  by  clo       OT: lkorrow, Daschle replacement:

Post  42316  by  spirare       Reply
Congress Promises Quick Iraq Vote

By Jim Abrams
Associated Press Writer
Friday, September 20, 2002; 9:19 AM

WASHINGTON ?? Congress is
promising a quick vote on President
Bush's request for authority to use
military force against Iraq, moving
toward a show of unity to back up
the president's effort to gain support
on Iraq from Russia and other wary

Leaders from both parties
welcomed a draft proposal Bush
offered Thursday in which Congress
would authorize the president to
"use all means," including military
force, to defend U.S. national
security interests against the threat
posed by Iraqi President Saddam

Senate Republican leader Trent
Lott, R-Miss., said both the House
and Senate could vote on the
resolution as early as the first week
in October before lawmakers go
home to campaign for the Nov. 5
election. He said lawmakers would
review the president's proposal
over the weekend, but "I'm
perfectly happy with the language."

Senate Majority Leader Tom
Daschle, D-S.D., agreed that "there
is absolutely no difference of
opinion with regard to the threat
that Saddam Hussein poses and the
need to address that threat in a multitude of ways." He said Democrats
wanted some changes in the wording of the proposal, but were confident a
broad consensus could be reached.

On Friday Bush was meeting at the White House with Russian Foreign
Minister Igor Ivanov and Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov, part of a full-court
campaign to win Russian acquiescence to the anti-Iraq campaign.

First, the two Russian ministers met at the State Department with Secretary of
State Colin Powell and Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld.

At the same time, the White House was releasing a policy document
emphasizing a change in U.S. military strategy toward reliance on a first-strike
or pre-emptive stance in the post-Cold War era of terrorist threats.

Bush often has talked of this changing national security posture, and "The
National Security Strategy of the United States" is a report that the president
must, under law, submit to Congress.

"America is now threatened less by conquering states than we are by failing
ones," states the document, first reported by The New York Times.

Asked about this Friday, Sen. Charles Grassley voiced some reservations.
The Iowa Republican called it "a projection of America's international

But in an interview on NBC's "Today" program, he said, "The United States
should never forecast to the rest of the world that we desire one inch of
foreign territory."

Bush initially said he didn't need the approval of Congress to take military
action against Iraq. But a show of support from Capitol Hill would be a boost
to the president as he presses for a U.N. Security Council resolution
authorizing force and tries to put together an international coalition to force
Iraq to disarm.

Russia and France, which hold veto power as permanent members of the
U.N. Security Council, have voiced strong reservations to a new resolution
authorizing the use of force against Iraq.

Sergei Ivanov revealed the gap with the U.S. position on Thursday when,
meeting with Rumsfeld at the Pentagon, he said he believed U.N. weapons
inspectors would succeed in settling the question of whether Iraq has
weapons of mass destruction.

Iraqi Foreign Minister Naji Sabri, meanwhile, repeated to the United Nations
that Iraq was ready to accept, without conditions, the return of inspectors,
and that Iraq had no biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.

Bush belittled Iraqi assertions that it had nothing to hide, saying it was "the
same old song and dance we've heard for 11 years." He challenged the
Security Council anew to show some "backbone ... or the United States and
some of our friends will do so."

The resolution the president presented to Congress would give him broad
war-making authority similar to what Congress gave his father, George H.W.
Bush, in 1991 before the start of the Gulf War.

As drafted, it would authorize him to use force unilaterally if he deemed
necessary, without waiting for the United Nations to act.

It reads: "The president is authorized to use all means that he determines to be
appropriate, including force, in order to enforce the United Nations Security
Council resolutions, defend the national security interests of the United States
against the threat posed by Iraq, and restore international peace and security
in the region."

Democrats in particular took issue with the final phrase on restoring
international peace and security, saying it was too broad. Sen. Joseph Biden,
the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said he was sure the
president was "not asking for unilateral authority to act against Syria or

Democrats also stressed that the resolution should focus on getting the United
Nations to take a tough stand on disarming Iraq. To talk about unilateral
action "is a little premature now," Biden, D-Del., said.
© 2002 The Associated Press

Post  42317  by  spirare       Reply
Bush Outlines Military Strategy

By Laurie Kellman
Associated Press Writer
Friday, September 20, 2002; 11:50 AM

WASHINGTON ?? President
Bush served notice on Friday that
the U.S. will shift its military strategy
away from the deterrence that
characterized the Cold War and
toward pre-emptive action against
terrorists seeking weapons of mass

"The United States can no longer
solely rely on a reactive posture as
we have in the past," Bush wrote.
"We cannot let our enemies strike

That means taking action against
hostile forces like Iraq, he said,
even when multinational groups like
the United Nations balk.

"As a matter of common sense and
self-defense, American will act
against such emerging threats before
they are fully formed," he wrote in
"The National Military Strategy for
the United States of America."

"While the United States will constantly strive to enlist the support of the
international community, we will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to
exercise our right of self-defense by acting preemptively against such
terrorists," he added, "to prevent them from doing harm against our people
and our country."

Presidents are required by law to submit the document to Congress, but
Bush's doctrine amounted to the official declaration of the death of Cold War
strategy that pushed the superpowers to stockpile nuclear weapons as a way
of ensuring peace.

Still, he made clear that the military will be broadly reformed in part to ensure
that U.S. interests are never again threatened the way they were in the Cold

"Our forces will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries from
pursuing a military build-up in hopes of surpassing or equaling the power of
the United States," Bush wrote.

The document also reinforced Bush's drive to topple Iraqi President Saddam
Hussein at a time when Congress considers his request to use military force
and the White House seeks support from Russia, France and other wary
nations as part of a push for U.N. backing.

In the second paragraph of the 33-page document, Bush sought to answer
critics of American motivations.

"We do not use our strength to press for unilateral advantage," he wrote. "We
seek instead to create a balance of power that favors human freedom."

The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon
showed the nation a different enemy and forced change on U.S. military
strategy. Unlike the Soviet Union, suicidal terrorists cannot be deterred.

"Enemies of the past needed great armies and great industrial capabilities to
endanger America," Bush wrote. "Now, shadowy networks of individuals can
bring great chaos and suffering to our shores for less than it costs to purchase
a single tank."

Among the goals, Bush said, is "supporting moderate and modern
government, especially in the Muslim world, to ensure that the conditions and
ideologies that promote terrorism do not find fertile ground in any nation."

Bush also pledged support for an independent and democratic Palestinian
state "if Palestinians embrace democracy and the rule of law, confront
corruption and firmly reject terror."

Meanwhile, "Israeli settlement activity in the occupied territories must stop,"
Bush said.


On the Net: White House:
© 2002 The Associated Press

Post  42318  by  gold-rules       Reply
Get happy, and while you're at it, healthy and wealthy. See mdft today.

(Voluntary Disclosure: ST Rating- Strong Buy; LT Rating- Strong Buy)

Post  42319  by  gold-rules       OT: Have you seen what mdft has done this year? W

Post  42320  by  spirare       Reply

War on Terrorism

The victims demand it.
The families demand it.
America demands it.
Freedom demands it.


THIS is what our Nation is responding to.
Please remember that in the difficult times ahead.

Post  42321  by  spirare       Reply

September 20, 1963

President John F. Kennedy, speaking to the UN General Assembly, calls for better American-Soviet cooperation and an expedition to the moon.

Post  42322  by  pacemakernj       OT: Thought you Dems would like this.
Post  42323  by  clo       OT: Oh Pace! chances are if I had to listen to Ter

Post  42324  by  nacl01       Reply
Home Depot

I just stopped at Home Depot during lunch to pick up some garden supplies for the weekend. I was number five in the checkout line, and, when I realized how slow the line was moving, I decided I didn't need the supplies right then.

This is not uncommon. When my wife and I see long checkout lines, we say it is like Home Depot.

The other thing I have seen is the lack of service. I remember about ten years ago you could always find someone to help you. And they knew the answer you needed. But, lately it is hard to find anyone to help you. When you find someone, if you are lucky, they will know who to ask to help you. If you are really lucky, they can find this person with the answers. Two years ago, I would have said everyone who knew building materials was probably working construction, but today is different. They should be able to hire good help.

Maybe Arizona is unusual in the poor service at HD, but my brother in the southeast says it is the same there.

So, I hear others on this board are happy shopping at HD, but I find (marginally) better service at Lowes. I will probably stop at a garden center on the way home.

That is why I have never been able to buy any HD stock.


Post  42325  by  pacemakernj       OT: Clo, the last great Democrat was Harry Truman.
Post  42326  by  pdowd       OT: clo--speaking of democrats !

Post  42327  by  lkorrow       Reply
Clo, oh my, I didn't think of that. Really! I was thinking young in age. But that's discriminatory, so who knows. Wow.

Post  42328  by  cowdog       Reply
Danking. Changing terminology doesn't change the meaning.

The word "pre-exemption" was coined by Israel to describe their aggressive attack against the Arab nations of Syria, Egypt, and Jordan. As a result of that attack, Israel grabbed territory from all three countries, much of which is now referred to as the occupied territories. At the time, much of the world did not think much of "pre-exemption" and the UN issued Resolution 242, correctly calling this attack naked aggression and demanding that this territory be returned to the rightful owners.

Only Adolph Hitler, President Bush and his handlers in Israel, Sharon and Netanyahu, have ever accepted this terminology to mean anything other than naked aggression. When Hitler invaded Poland claiming such nonsense, no one swallowed that line. Now Bush is adopting the same line as Hitler and Israel with the purpose of aggressively taking control of 75% of the remaining oil reserves located in the Middle East. It is not at all surprising that the rest of the world is not buying into this one bit.

It is not a question of oil. The US does support some pretty repressive regimes, but that is a matter for the residents of those countries to settle. For the rest of the world, the primary concern is the uninterrupted flow of oil and the Arab nations cannot do anything with it but sell it. In fact they are selling it cheaper now than they did thirty years ago. None of the Arab oil producing nations are now considered rich. Production costs have risen far faster than the price of oil, no matter who extracts it. That is not going to change.

Terrorism against the United States is very real. The root cause is US support for the brutal and genocidal Israeli occupation of the Arab territories. Arab terrorism will exist as long as the occupation continues. The only way to eliminate it is to end the occupation. However the US now wants to join Israel in another occupation of Arab territory in Iraq. All this will do in increase the terrorism against Americans, both here and abroad. Israel has never been able to stop terrorism, just as Hitler and the SS were not able to stop terrorist attacks against Germans in occupied Ukraine and Belarus. Should the US attack Iraq, we can only look forward to much more terrorism here in the US, in Iraq itself, and everywhere else in the world.

The problem of peace in the Middle East and of Arab terrorism is a very easy one to solve. It only requires the return of the occupied territories as required by UN Resolution 242. It is so simple that one can conclude that the US, by a policy of "pre-exemption", for some reason wishes to encourage Arab terrorism. Just exactly why is the question we should be debating.

Post  42329  by  abveldeh       Reply
Jimmy Carter put Iraq on the list of countries that supports terrorism (therby prohibiting arms sales to them) and Ronald Reagan took them off that list and funnelled weapons and money to them. Carter had it right.

And just because USA didn't like iran either...that's no reason to give the terrorist Saddam Hussein nuclear technology:

In 1989, the Pentagon and the Department of Energy invited three Iraqis to attend a "detonation conference" in Portland, Oregon in August. Financed by American taxpayers, the meeting brought together experts from around the world to explain to the Iraqis how to produce shock waves in any desired configuration. There were even lectures on "H.M.X.," the high explosive of choice for nuclear detonation, and on flyer plates, used to help produce the precise shock waves needed to ignite A-bombs. The UN found both H.M.X. and flyer plates at Iraq's main nuclear weapon development site. The three Iraqis who attended the conference came from the laboratory that provided parts for Iraq's first high explosive nuclear detonator.

The free European world considered President Carter one of the finest honest recent American presidents unlike the rubbish what came after him.

Post  42330  by  clo       OT: Thanks to Monty again for pointing out this ge

Post  42331  by  abveldeh       Reply
Here's some help from George Carlin....

And just for grins for all those who wish to argue about religion:'re%20all%20Diseased/George%20Carlin%20-%20American%20########.mp3 replace by b u l l s h i t and put the sound on

Post  42332  by  pacemakernj       Reply
nac101, HD, in a word sells garbage. The quality of products they are selling is just not up to snuff. It really is low budget. I refuse to go there. Any serious contractor knows this. Aside from the poor service and long lines and major congestion at the one near me at least. Just my 2 cents.

Post  42333  by  StockmanI7       OT: Cowdog: "Pre-exemption"

Post  42334  by  wilful10       Reply
Pace - Do you think HD carries different

product lines in different states? Here in CA - they carry lines like Makita, DeWalt, Skil and others of similar quality,,, which I would not categorize as "garbage".. Would you?

What brands does your HD carry, and in what state? Could it be that a state with very low per capita income carries lower priced brands?

I think you and I are usually on the same page - but this time - we are reading a different book. :-)


Post  42335  by  danking_70       OT: CowDog re: interesting view/rewrite of history

Post  42336  by  nacl01       Reply
HD product lines

My brother-in-law was in purchasing for a plumbing supply house and said that the faucets at HD were of a lower grade than what he was getting from the same manufacturer. That is why they need to be repaired/replaced so often.

By the way, I was there to buy compost for the garden, so quality was not my concern.


Post  42337  by  tinljhtkh       OT: pdowd!
Post  42338  by  tinljhtkh       OT: Clo!

Post  42339  by  wilful10       Reply
I know exactly what you mean...

A few yrs ago, I bought a kitchen faucet there (at HD)for a very low price,,,, very low considering that the box it came in said "Delta Mfg Co". I like Delta and Peerless for kitchen faucets. When I got home and took it out of the box and noted that the name Delta did not appear anywhere on the faucet (as do all made in the USA Deltas), I had some consternation. Then, seeing "China" on the packing slip - I had my usual "made in China" red flag. This applies to all electric, electronic and plumbing devices from China.
I installed the faucet, and sure enough - it leaked. I took it off,,, examined it carefully - reinstalled - and it still leaked. Took it back to HD, and traded in on a genuine Delta - for about $20 or 30 more. Took it home - installed it - and nary a leak! The genuine one (made in the USA) has the name Delta on it,,, but other than that - it is absolutely identical!

Like to tell you more, but going to the movies.


Post  42340  by  pacemakernj       Reply
Wilful, RE: HD, no, they do carry those brands. But what I am referring to is within those brands there are different grades of products. For example, last year I needed a new sliding glass door. Well they carried The Anderson brand. Which is what my windows are. So I wanted the slider to be the same and to match the same finish. They only had the cheaper model available for $1000 as I recall. I was not impressed. I went to another dealer who had the upgraded door with the options I wanted in the matching finish. It was about $400 more and I bought it. Home Depot did not carry the upgraded model. In addition, in my line of work we use a variety of screws, fasteners toggles etc... Well I don't know where they buy their stuff but the quality of steel and materials just does not hold up in the field. Phillips screw heads are ALWAYS stripping out. It is just cheap crap. As far as per capita stuff I live in Bergen County NJ which I believe is the 10th richest county in the country so that is not it. It is just a hands on experience thing. I can't say it any plainer than that. Sorry, Pace.

Post  42341  by  pacemakernj       OT: PDowd, there is nothing wrong with fear. The p

Post  42342  by  lkorrow       Reply
CAUTION. When I clicked on the first link a program was launched on my PC that hung my firewall and itself. I killed the task and deleted all temporary files. Had to reboot to get the firewall back up. I am still running a virusscan on my hard drive, but everything seems ok now . . .

Post  42343  by  lkorrow       OT: Stockman, I'm curious about this 1948 border i

Post  42344  by  motordavid       Reply
nacl01: HD prods
anectdotaly, our bldr for oue current Money Pit, said the same for plumbing and some other supplies. And, the same went for Lowes, although I find their stores more navigable.

Our bldr laughed when we asked if he sourced stuff from HD or Lowes. No bone to pick here, as I have never, nor do, nor will, own the stock. For the homeowner, semi-handiperson, they are both good sources of stuff...but any custom or near custom bldr won't back a truck up to them. Interesting thread. The MickeyD's (HD), and the Wendy/Bk/et al (Lowes), of the mega hdware store mkt. BR,md

Post  42345  by  jeffbas       OT: Home Depot
Post  42346  by  ferociousD       When I was still working for the Man-
Post  42347  by  pricegriz       OT: MotorDavid

Post  42348  by  Tampathom       Reply

I have a couple of concerns:

Just yesterday, it was reported President Bush reiterated that Israel must stop building settlements in the occupied territories. Clearly, that issue is still on his agenda. Now if we go in and successfully bash Iraq, it would seem logical that our next course would be to solve the Israeli-Palestian issue and establish a free, democratic Palestinian state. But given the nature of Israeli domestic politics and the unusual support Israel enjoys over the U.S. congress, what new incentive would Israel have to withdraw from the settlements, given that one major threat has been removed and with big brother firmly ensconsed in the region. If I were an Israeli under those circumstances, I think I might "want to have my cake and eat it too." I suspect they'll be less willing to negotiate. But without adjoining territory, free from Israeli contonments, and without a secure source of water, the new Palestinian state might as well be Lesotho, and will pacify only a minority of the Palestinians.

So I do believe cowdog may be right in one respect, and that is both Israel and the United States could be exposed to greater and more frequent acts of terrorism once we defeat and occupy Iraq. In short, the war will (hopefully) solve the WMD issue, but it may exacerbate the terrorist threat.

Of course, if the Iraqi WMD threat is as great as the President insists, I think we have no choice but to act pre-emptively. But it sure has the potential to open a bucket of worms for the U.S. I just cannot see what post-war courses of action we can take to turn this around. No doubt all the think tanks in Washington are abuzz with this issue. I hope they come up with something. Israel may turn out to be the only winner in this affair.

Post  42349  by  pdowd       OT: Wilful10---speaking of delta faucets ! When we

Post  42350  by  abveldeh       Reply
lkorrow I just clicked safe target as and had no warning whatsoever but I have a Vigor Draytek 2200 E in between. I am sorry if it caused you trouble